tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609084580606464400.post621944776923021982..comments2023-04-01T07:38:50.007+01:00Comments on Beware of the Sorrell: Dear Men, Please Listen. Love, ManMark Sorrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05073823684975353199noreply@blogger.comBlogger119125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609084580606464400.post-4149881526190584732012-04-25T10:56:32.712+01:002012-04-25T10:56:32.712+01:00I've addressed this issue in the comments alre...I've addressed this issue in the comments already. The word is used ironically, I hoped that would be abundantly clear. I am, again, amazed anyone would read that and think I am calling my audience fags.<br /><br />I apologise if I've caused offense. <br /><br />If it helps, I am offended you would dismiss the issue on the grounds of a single word, particularly in this context.Mark Sorrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05073823684975353199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609084580606464400.post-81447016197592338372012-04-25T10:47:45.785+01:002012-04-25T10:47:45.785+01:00Why do you include hate language when fighting fo...Why do you include hate language when fighting for proper treatment of women.<br /><br />If you call your audience a fag, expect sandwich jokes. Seriously, otherwise I was on board till I read that.Unicorn Boyshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13174207680347325853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609084580606464400.post-56559292954790300662012-01-15T18:33:11.310+00:002012-01-15T18:33:11.310+00:00@Everyone who keeps talking about how you can’t re...@Everyone who keeps talking about how you can’t really change anything with words so why bother, make the claim that women are equally culpable, make the claim that assholes will be assholes<br /><br />When I hear/read any variation of "But it's so hard to change people because people are assholes already and will always be and also it's like banging my head against the wall, but I totally understand how it's wrong to be sexist or any other -ism.", I (and perhaps many other women, though I will not put words in anyone else's mouth) actually hear/read "I am too lazy to do anything. The business of making my little space of life be it gaming, real life, or any other culture I participate in is beyond me. I have no agency. I am content with idly laying around while the business of life happens around me. Also, I am part of the problem and is one of those assholes."<br /><br />What people who employ this fail to realize is the following: these kinds of articles that complain about the state of comic books, gaming, or any other geek/non-geek pursuit are not talking, specifically, to the guys who will straight up call a woman a cunt. They aren't talking to the guys who will threaten and even follow through with the threat. Everyone knows that vitriol is a problem. Everyone here has acknowledged that, though some then turn it around and say "But women are even more responsible because a handful of them take advantage of men. Also, MAN FEELINGS!".<br /><br />These articles are to the fence sitters, the guys who claim, over and over again that they totally and completely think these behaviors are horrendous. Those guys who do nothing. Who are silent. That is the audience here, in my opinion.<br /><br />You talk about a sea change? The people most capable of changing are the ones who see the problem and then make a conscious decision not to do anything about. The people who accept it. Who say that they have no power. You are *conceding* that you are useless and have no agency. Why, on this planet, would you *ever* hand over your agency to someone else, in this case the internet assholes? Why would you ever, willingly, say that the business of life is not your business? That the business of stopping abuse is not your business? Because, even if you aren't actually changing someone, you are, absolutely handing over your will and your power and your agency and your ability to meaningfully affect the world around you to assholes. You are becoming weak and you let it happen.<br /><br />The greatest gift we, as humans have is to change the decision to purposefully attempt to change the world around us for better or worse. And you are giving that up. So you are opting out of being a human, which is sad. So when you see abuse happening, you stand up and say “not here you don’t”. Because let me tell you this, when you don’t, it gives the people who genuinely believe this even more fortification to abuse any woman in your life who is a gamer. Are you telling me that if a woman in your life came to you and told you about her travails that you would say “Sorry sweetheart, that’s just the culture and there isn’t anything we can do about it.”? Is empathy so failing in you that you can just let that go? But I cannot emphasize the following point enough: even if the only change that happens is the one in yourself, something meaningful has happened; and if it can happen in you, to the point that you are willing to stand against it, then it can happen to others. That is change, ableists. That is what has and can happen.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609084580606464400.post-28549184342553509242011-12-29T12:58:16.292+00:002011-12-29T12:58:16.292+00:00@jdarn and Oleakim - sorry for the delay in gettin...@jdarn and Oleakim - sorry for the delay in getting your comments up, I forgot I had approval turned on for comments on articles over a certain age.<br /><br />I've done a lot of research, reading and thinking about this issue since I wrote this piece and, while I'm incredibly glad I wrote it, I wouldn't put things quite the way I did if I did it again, particularly in the comments.<br /><br />re: jdarn - The problem of abuse is definitely much more apparent in the game community than the industry, and I didn't make enough distinction between the two. <br /><br />I do still think that the simple fact that there are proportionally fewer women in the game industry than there are men in primary school teaching is a pretty damning indication that - for whatever reasons - there are issues that need to be addressed. Soft bigotry, educational choices and anti-family working conditions are three of them.Mark Sorrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05073823684975353199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609084580606464400.post-91554640849912523372011-12-21T21:44:24.705+00:002011-12-21T21:44:24.705+00:00Had an indirectly relevant thought you might appre...Had an indirectly relevant thought you might appreciate. It appears the Egyptians have this figured out. This week a large protest march occurred consisting of women speaking out against the violence the military was perpetrating on the women, dubbed "The Million Woman March". The men took an interesting approach in how they participated. They simply stood in a ring around the women to protect them while they marched, so any attack would have to go through them first.<br /><br />Seemed like an excellent metaphor for the concepts you expressed here.Oleakimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14528687225942713790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609084580606464400.post-86291369525422329022011-12-20T14:44:26.429+00:002011-12-20T14:44:26.429+00:00@Mark
I've read the comments here and partic...@Mark <br /><br />I've read the comments here and participated in more than one panel on this very topic. I'd like to address an (admittedly summarized) issue. It goes something like this:<br /><br />'There are statistically very few women in gaming; this is evidence of adverse treatment.'<br /><br />I find this claim to be very difficult to justify. While working as an instructor for a foreign university, I encountered the common ruckus made regarding the precious few females enrolled in our engineering program (despite extensive and expensive outreach to them for diversity purposes). <br /><br />This in no way reflects on a gender bias within the field itself, but rather a difference in preference between the sexes. If you asked any male in the class if he would like to see more women enroll, the answer would invariably be an emphatic "Yes. Dear god, yes." Similarly, women are much more likely than men to choose a career teaching (an example mentioned earlier). This is more than a statistical anecdote - it is a window into very real differences in the psyche not unrelated to gender. Thomas Sowell covers this extensively in a fabulous discussion on gender bias and income disparity - something not to be missed if these issues truly interest you.<br /><br />It is certainly unfair to assume that a low representation in a given field unhealthy. I am not claiming you have done so - you have provided a statistic showing that women *DO* have an interest in gaming. But playing casual games and making games are very different creatures, both in practice and in general (regardless of how factual) conception - and issue which matters greatly when it comes time to choosing what you will major in, or what industry to chase. <br /><br />A female friend of mine who loves KOTOR and Monkey Island avoids jobs in the game industry, which she believes to be inseparable from late-nighters, red bull and mile-high pizza boxes, and brutal coding. In many ways she is right. In others, she is dead wrong. But the PERCEPTION itself can be a killer for entry for many women long before they can find out if the industry is sexist or not. <br /><br />In my experience, women in the industry face the reverse of what you write about: the soft bigotry of low expectations. They are either treated as equals, or treated as a novelty and given much more leniency with regard to their role, due to an inherent (and no doubt sexist, but of a desperate, compensatory sort) doubt of their abilities.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609084580606464400.post-22057823098643473002011-12-18T20:03:08.337+00:002011-12-18T20:03:08.337+00:00Then I can only apologise.Then I can only apologise.Mark Sorrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05073823684975353199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609084580606464400.post-3307025899410122912011-12-18T19:56:05.344+00:002011-12-18T19:56:05.344+00:00Well, it's not funny and it isn't making a...Well, it's not funny and it isn't making a point. It's offensive and undermines everything you wrote.darklinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12965135587907920510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609084580606464400.post-76197268502127191962011-12-18T19:43:31.831+00:002011-12-18T19:43:31.831+00:00I'd hope it's pretty clear that I'm tr...I'd hope it's pretty clear that I'm trying to do both of the first two and not the last.Mark Sorrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05073823684975353199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609084580606464400.post-90020831052568290452011-12-18T19:11:03.851+00:002011-12-18T19:11:03.851+00:00You're not making a point, you're not bein...You're not making a point, you're not being funny, that was completely uncalled for and completely changed the tone of your article.<br /><br /><br />Are you suggesting that homophobic slurs are somehow more acceptable? What kind of insane hypocrite are you?darklinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12965135587907920510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609084580606464400.post-80754956244981383782011-12-18T19:09:35.048+00:002011-12-18T19:09:35.048+00:00Uh, why the completely unwarranted homophobic slur...Uh, why the completely unwarranted homophobic slur in the middle of this article?darklinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12965135587907920510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609084580606464400.post-64317089714822018952011-12-17T01:15:54.446+00:002011-12-17T01:15:54.446+00:00Thanks so much for this post! It's wonderful ...Thanks so much for this post! It's wonderful to be able to link to a well-written post by a male ally and say to gaming men I know, "Look. Right here. This is what you can do. Don't tell me that you can't do anything because here's another man giving you a laundry list."<br /><br />A couple of points...<br />First of all, in proof of your point about women self censoring, I was led to this post by two women bloggers. They are going to try to stop self-censoring as a second-order result of this post:<br />http://replayable.wordpress.com/2011/12/16/writing-about-writing-about-games/<br />http://lookspring.co.uk/in-which-i-dont-try-to-write-like-a-man<br /><br />So, well done indeed.<br /><br />Secondly, I am a female programmer and I call BS on the idea that women simply don't want to be programmers. The number of women in CS programs got pretty high about 25 years ago and has been plummeting ever since. I believe it is the only one of the STEM areas where this holds true. This points to something beyond intrinsic ability or interest. The reasons why continue to be bandied about, but here are some possibilities:<br /><br />- A big one is lack of female role models. A lot of women, myself included, go on to be project managers, so younger potential female programmers don't see role models doing the fun stuff. So why are we project managers? Maybe because we are more apt to say yes when asked in order to stay in management's good graces. Maybe because people assume (rightly or wrongly) that we'll have better social skills.<br />- Women programmers consistently under-rate themselves and won't push for advancement. I've heard several former programmer HR women say that when it comes to women programmers, they usually assume that a woman has at least 20% more experience than she's admitting to. That means that women come off looking less experienced and less desirable than men, who are generally perfectly willing to boast. Again, I don't think this is intrinsic.<br />- The nasty nasty environment. Sure, it would be great if every woman could stick it out in the boys' club, but it's exhausting! There is a pervasive culture of booth babes, misogynistic conference slides, and being ignored in engineering meetings. After a few years of that, who blames women for opting out? A friend of mine made an interesting point about adolescent boys playing online games. These are arenas where young men and their peers can play for hours with no adult intervention or guiding hand. It's Lord of the Flies. Many of our adult programmers are from these bands of boys. It's not too surprising that they don't all play nice with women.<br /><br />Thirdly, sure, it would be great if we were all androgynous and gender didn't matter in gaming at all. But it *does*. Simply put, men can put on male gender stereotypes and no one calls them out for it or says they are "attention whores." But women simply can't do the same thing. So, to those women gamers who think it's natural for women to use androgynous names and careful wording choices, why aren't men doing the same?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609084580606464400.post-7086078439421801142011-12-16T19:44:51.424+00:002011-12-16T19:44:51.424+00:00@Mark
I actually got into a huge debate with a fe...@Mark<br /><br />I actually got into a huge debate with a female co-worker one time because I felt a female character we were designing was TOO scantily clad, and she wanted her to slut it up. I am all for taking a woman's concerns into account, I want to be clear on that, and I agree that there are still lots of barriers to women enjoying many games because of how catered to men they are. I guess I just wanted to open my big mouth (and come close to putting my foot in) to argue that hiring women isn't a silver bullet to solving the issue, and that it insults men's(or both genders really) intelligence on being able to think outside our own gender stereotypes.<br /><br />A great example of a barrier is when my wife tried playing Lost Planet 2 and was happy to see a female character to play as who didn't have cleavage hanging out, but soon discovered the game had a 3rd person camera and the character had a g-string naked butt pointed at a low angle camera; needless to say she wasn't happy having that butt pointed in her face.<br /><br />I don't think "Portal" is alone on this one. Trischka from Bulletstorm was a strong female character, and Tanya Jessen did a great job fighting to not make her a barrier to women. (side note, I was actually pissed off about how they ruined her avatar clothes, wrote about it here http://ivandashsmith.blogspot.com/2011/03/if-its-not-one-thing-its-another.html)<br /><br />Also, at WayForward we make a lot of games with women as our heroes. Characters like Shantae, Luna, and Patricia Wagon are all strong female characters who aren't pandering to teenage boys. Even our reboot of Bloodrayne saw her going from an overly hyper-sexualized joke into an angry tough killer (and we were actually dinged by Destructoid for doing so.) <br /><br />I often wonder how much of the barrier comes from publisher side versus developer side. Not to draw a blanket statement myself, but how many people in marketing see their audiences as stereotypes and end up perpetuating the cycle. "These girls need bigger boobs, market research says teenage boys like boobs!"<br /><br />I really think the shift is coming, and it will be full of ups and downs like a stock ticker, but overall it is on the rise. And these kind of talks are really good to show that there are people like us out there who want to see these barriers stripped away.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09283186048113571347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609084580606464400.post-58081929860261886942011-12-16T17:28:28.970+00:002011-12-16T17:28:28.970+00:00What I'm seeing a lot of is some guys whining ...What I'm seeing a lot of is some guys whining about "White Knights" being just as bad - or worse - than threatening assholes that push women and girls out of games. That's ridiculous. <br /><br />While White Knights are definitely a problem, it's hardly an issue of the same magnitude as the guys shouting a young woman off of Ventrilo with "Tits or GTFO!" Complaining about White Knights while advocating that "nothing will ever change anyway" just sounds like you're hemming and hawing to defend the idea that you shouldn't be morally obligated to stand up against this bullshit. You're making excuses and redirecting the problem to men who have questionable motivations for taking sexist culture and its active participants to task. You're doing it because someone is suggesting you need to change your lazy, enabling behavior and it's scary to realize you're implicit in this bullshit when you don't stand against it.<br /><br />I've seen White Knights in action, and I've seen the damage they can do. It's not insubstantial, but guess what: I'd take the most Valorous Holier Than Thou White Knight over a group of slur-slinging manchild rape-joke-gigglers any day. Every single time.<br /><br />Also, someone mentioned that it's not worth standing up for women because they don't stand up for men. Are you kidding me? If you're a guy who doesn't fit into the traditional ruleset assigned to guys, or who isn't comfortable with society's notion of masculinity, feminists are pretty much the ONLY people sticking up for you. If you're throwing your lot in with the asshats that shriek "FAG!" over XBox Live 10 times a minute, you're doing it wrong.<br /><br />Nicole<br />@devilherdueNicolehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06895897238597614547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609084580606464400.post-38043464417006830962011-12-16T12:08:07.483+00:002011-12-16T12:08:07.483+00:00@IvanDashSmith
Thank you. I agree with your point...@IvanDashSmith<br /><br />Thank you. I agree with your points about diversity, but I do think having women involved in greater numbers and taking their womanly concerns into account would make a big difference to the kind of games that get made and particularly the look and feel of those games.<br /><br />The Portal example as a 'good' image for women in games is notable by its singularity. Basically, the portrayal of women in games is incredibly male focussed. That is likely a barrier to women wanting to make and/or play them. That's bad.Mark Sorrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05073823684975353199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609084580606464400.post-4799983355185478372011-12-16T02:32:20.047+00:002011-12-16T02:32:20.047+00:00Intrinsic!
That was the word I couldn't dredg...Intrinsic!<br /><br />That was the word I couldn't dredge up over lunch.<br /><br />Intrinsic factors and intrinsic differences...elfinkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17112858423237323067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609084580606464400.post-66777883576799928842011-12-16T02:30:14.650+00:002011-12-16T02:30:14.650+00:00Hi Mark,
Thanks for your excellent response! I um...Hi Mark,<br /><br />Thanks for your excellent response! I ummed and ahhed over the attitude v behaviour thing for some time. Behavior can be viewed as an outward expression of attitude, but is not necessarily driven by it, though more generally for pub chat you can get away with drawing a causal link between the two. Having said that though, it is well known - and studied - that by choosing and controlling the way we behave, we can directly affect the way we think and feel.<br /><br />Which I think is your point - we ought to be attempting to drive a change in behaviour to bring about the change in attitude. That is definitely something that can be achieved at the top level, but I worry that it be a step too far for the Xbox Live level, where appealing to the attitudes of its players might be a more effective angle.<br /><br />Regardless, it is somewhat semantic to work out which is the horse and which is the cart, as in this case, both need to change.<br /><br />Which is why I think it is so important to have people out there acting, loudly, in ways that ought to affect attitude changes.<br /><br />That lady you spoke to, what she said, the actual words she used, mirrors results from experiments done by Ms. Jane Elliot (Anatomy of Prejudice), which in turn mirrors the article you had read about power and prejudice.<br /><br />It saddens me no end to think that there are women (of course anyone for that matter, though this discussion is certainly about the fairer sex specifically) out there in the industry who are self-censoring for those reasons.<br /><br />It's a real kick in the guts and makes me a bit fucking mad to think of the energy and productivity that is both being wasted AND untapped due to it.<br /><br />Thanks for the link to the larger quote - I had a feeling there was more to it, given the rest of your discourse. And you are right, the quote really /really/ gets the point across that while there is sexism in both directions, it is the combination of all those other factors (power - both physical and metaphorical - position, privilege etc) that men hold over women that makes it so asymmetrical, regardless of the amount flowing in each direction. (Ine)quality over quantity you might say.<br /><br />Keep fighting the good fight - you have my sword.<br /><br />Trev (elfinke)elfinkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17112858423237323067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609084580606464400.post-66284291178470789802011-12-16T02:22:30.067+00:002011-12-16T02:22:30.067+00:00Hey Mark, good read. Overall I think you made a l...Hey Mark, good read. Overall I think you made a lot of good points and I hope these kind of conversations can keep happening so we can shed some light on this and turn down the flames of hate from boiling to an acceptable simmer.<br /><br />There was really only one thing I didn't really agree with fully. The idea of "More diversity in your company will bring more diversity to your product." As we keep releasing more games which are more inclusive to both sexes, more women may want to work in the field of development. But I don't know that bringing in someone of a different gender is bringing in more diversity than other traits individuals may have based on background and interests, especially when most jobs are highly specialized. I guess I have always considered myself someone who tries to think outside the box, but by saying bringing in women creates diversity can seem like conversely I think the same as all other men, which I actually don't and pridefully so.<br /><br />I also want to point out that my wife plays a lot of FPS games online and is harassed quite often. But she is often very surprised at how often other guys speak up and tell the trolls to shut up. It's kind of refreshing. Like you think that the world is completely falling apart and completely devoid of compassion, but in the last year I have seen at least 3 horrible traffic accidents on the highway, and in each case there were tons of cars pulling over and rushing to help, and I was never the first person to dial into 911 even though I was sure I was the only one calling. I think it's a fitting analogy.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09283186048113571347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609084580606464400.post-86055182343447138202011-12-16T00:28:37.612+00:002011-12-16T00:28:37.612+00:00@Azuriel:
"And yet you never consider the po...@Azuriel:<br /><br />"And yet you never consider the possibility that any of those 99.9% failures end up being counter-productive. In fact, most of them are. Each time a WhiteKnight shows up, they make a mockery of what should have been something noble. It's embarrassing to watch, and encourages men to be silent, lest they end up looking as pathetic."<br /><br />Not sure what specific situations you're referring to here, but I get the impression from your explanation that the men you talk about seem to have quite a bit of an insecurity, what with caring so much about what others might think of them, and being afraid of looking "pathetic" and whatnot. If someone's that insecure, I would simply convey the truth that being a silent onlooker would actually make them appear more "pathetic" than speaking up for the victim ineffectively.<br /><br />""Speaking up" on internet forums, on the other hand, is worse than useless - it's harmful. The LAST thing that needs to happen is to give trolls the attention they crave. The more outrage, the more effective the trolling becomes."<br /><br />I don't understand why anyone would make not-appeasing-the-troll their #1 priority, even above doing-the-right-thing and making-myself-feel-better. If the trolling gets a discussion going, that means more people are getting themselves involved in the process at least mentally, and this is extremely valuable for any awareness campaigns. I would personally shake the troll's hand and thank them, as their participation has helped make the campaign more successful and lively, regardless of if getting more people to think about the issue was their initial motivation. The people voicing their opinions would end up feeling better about themselves, and if the trolls also end up feeling better about themselves, then it's win-win. :)<br /><br /><br />@Jos van Eekelen: Could you please give a definition or example of "validation as a human being" from the following statement:<br />"Have you ever noticed the amount of work a guy has to do to get validated as a human being on the internet?"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609084580606464400.post-75580225456669507412011-12-15T22:56:37.587+00:002011-12-15T22:56:37.587+00:00Hi Mark,
Fantastic article! Your passion, engagem...Hi Mark,<br /><br />Fantastic article! Your passion, engagement and the import placed into each word really struck a chord with me. I've written a response (more of a companion piece) to it on my (recently renewed) blog.<br /><br />It's a long road ahead, but (and I hesitate to use such a cliche), but every journey starts with a single step.elfinkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17112858423237323067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609084580606464400.post-7338387754181601452011-12-15T16:00:32.426+00:002011-12-15T16:00:32.426+00:00I really, truly appreciate what you've done he...I really, truly appreciate what you've done here. Judging by the comments on your post compared to the other articles that you've linked to, I'd say your initial point is proven.<br /><br />May the camel's back indeed break soon.ABankshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14565158725289697688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609084580606464400.post-8645245115499290872011-12-15T12:58:14.151+00:002011-12-15T12:58:14.151+00:00@Azuriel
A slightly more sophisticated excuse. V...@Azuriel <br /><br />A slightly more sophisticated excuse. Very slightly. <br /><br />I spent years thinking fuck you when confronted with this stuff. Hell, I've been told by people who know me well and have for years that hearing me say this stuff is a surprise. It's taken a ridiculously long time for me to come round.<br /><br />So what if some people get angry? That doesn't mean it hasn't effected them, in fact it means it has. I refuse to believe that people can read the things that, say Sanfrod has written and not admit, somewhere deep inside, that maybe there is actually an issue here.<br /><br />I am not concerned that a few people may have their hearts hardened, because I believe to my core that what I am saying, what so many people are saying, is right.<br /><br />You are still excusing behaviour that must change.<br /><br />Also, don't get too hung up on trolls. It's the atmosphere that the trolls must endure to do their trolling that matters. That's what you set out to change, not the trolls themselves.<br /><br />FInally, yes, I agree that getting better moderation on game sites would be a fucking huge thing. Some of the shit that Kotaku US let slide on Margaret Robertson's follow up piece amazed me. They have a hard job though. If you compare the US and AU sites, the AU community all stood behind Margaret and rounded on the trolls themselves. The US site all but encouraged them. It's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. The community can moderate, most of the time, as well as the moderators. Leave them to get the srs trolls and take down the ignorant yourself.Mark Sorrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05073823684975353199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609084580606464400.post-46157241664493277332011-12-15T12:48:00.491+00:002011-12-15T12:48:00.491+00:00@Verisasi
Thank you, good post and a good idea, o...@Verisasi<br /><br />Thank you, good post and a good idea, one hadn't really thought about. Would still rather see those who do this stuff confronted, but this is definitely still a positive thing to do.Mark Sorrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05073823684975353199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609084580606464400.post-68820767950745299652011-12-15T12:46:46.863+00:002011-12-15T12:46:46.863+00:00@sanfrod
That is a fucking brilliant post and it ...@sanfrod<br /><br />That is a fucking brilliant post and it made me very sad and even more frustrated. How the guys on here denying there is a problem can read that and not want to do something is genuinely beyond my understanding.<br /><br />Thank you very much for such a heartfelt and honest post. I hope others get as much from it as I did.Mark Sorrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05073823684975353199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609084580606464400.post-9744131580190681772011-12-15T12:45:11.733+00:002011-12-15T12:45:11.733+00:00@Jesus Christ Supercop - by denying that there is ...@Jesus Christ Supercop - by denying that there is an issue, or that nothing can or shoudl be done, then you are enabling it to go on. And that means you are the big problem. There are many people who will really never change. But their numbers are dwarfed by the people who do nothing to stop it and hence allow it to carry on. Those guys are the real issue and you are one of those guys. At best.<br /><br />Also, as I've pointed out, your knowledge on the subject is literally laughably poor.<br /><br />Sexism, if you want to get technical, is prejudice + power. So in the larger society, sexism can't be a women giving a man shit. In any one specific situation, that can be reversed (a female boss refusing to promote a male employee on the basis of gender is sexism). <br /><br />What you should be accusing me of is prejudice.<br /><br /><br />Anyway, more importantly, stop making excuses, flailing around and crying victim. This is a real problem. You need to help. It is genuinely pathetic to see you deny this.Mark Sorrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05073823684975353199noreply@blogger.com